Trader or Gambler?

How do I know if I'm a trader or a gambler?I ask myself these questions before I trade each day?

Are my winning trades larger than my Losing trades?
Do I keep open positions on losing trades even when I know I'm wrong?
Am I using a stop loss?
Am I chasing the market for every position?
Do I trade just before news releases?
How do I feel after a winning trade?over confident,confident or neutral.
Do I double up when I have lost?
Are my targets for profit to high?


Be lucky.

You're a trader when you analyse before put an order in your trading, because a gambler can't do so and they're just only depending on their luck. You're a trader when you're not hesitate yourself while trading.

some gamblers also count cards to improve their chances or winning, so its not fair to say someone who analyzes before trading. They key is EDUCATED and VARIED analysis. The market is constantly changing, so why is it possible you can use the same singular method for analysis day in and day out?

The funny thing is everybody wanna be a trader... and so they try to stick professional rules thinking it is the only way to be successfull in trading.
You are a trader when you work in an hedge fund and manage Millions of dollars... else you are nothing.... just a 'wannabe trader' including myself.

It's not because i don't give a f... to the MM that we are been taught that I'm more a gambler than anyone else.

Refer to the last bet taken on EurUsd chart... A good gambler makes more pips than a consistent wannabe trader.

Refering to the all questions you mentionned... you do not talk about a gambler... You talk about addicted person that needs to me in a trade all time thinking if he is not, then he misses opportunities.

good points CrazyTrader. Again, count some cards, learn how the game works, get experience, win, loose, breakeven, etc. then you will wake up one day successful.

michaelbai posted:
some gamblers also count cards to improve their chances or winning, so its not fair to say someone who analyzes before trading. They key is EDUCATED and VARIED analysis. The market is constantly changing, so why is it possible you can use the same singular method for analysis day in and day out?

You have to have some kind of method otherwise how are you going to know what works and what doesn't ,educated yes but the same analysis day in day out,ask any city trader,they stick with one method that works over a long period,tried and tested,yes the market is constantly changing,they sit and wait for the time their method works.

Trading is always a form of gambling i think, thats not a negative thing.

When you are gambling in a casino, you walk in with $100 and decide to put 10 times $10 on red, you know before you start that you have more change of loosing that winning. In this particular game, the casino has always an edge over you. They created a system for that game that makes you loose over the long run. You can still win over 10 bets, you can even win over 1000 bets when you have some luck on your side. So in this case, even the casino is gambling. There power is that if they keep playing for long enough against enough bets from enough people, there outcome will become positive sooner or later.

When you take other games, like poker or blackjack (at the time card counting was still possible), there is no predefined edge for anyone. The outcome will be determined by the players and how they decide how and when they bet. That means that when you be able to have a clear look of the current game and the current players, and you are able to make decisions based on that situation that give you an edge over the decisions of your opponents, and you keep playing for long enough, at some point your results will be positive. Even in this situation you are still gambling because you can loose and loose, and you never know when you will become positive. You only created a game with the luck on your side.

This is stil the same with trading the forex markets these days.
This market is Break even, what means that where someone wins money, someone else have to loose that amount. Keep that in mind.
The benefits of this market is that it moves in clear patterns, actually the same patterns as it did for a long time. This makes it possible to have an idea how your opponents work, how they make decisions. Where they most likely go in and out. Whit this noledge you can create a system that takes advantage over them what gives you an edge over your opponents.

keep in mind that this will be most likely a relative small edge. Because of this even if you are a winning player, it will be a messy road to succes with a lot of losses on the road.
I think this is the main reason why so many people are still loosing in the long run.
Because of this small edge, you have to deal with periods that the markets keep going against you, again and again, while your still have an edge, and still doing well.
This pumps in so much emotion that people doing to doubt them self. They are likely going to think that they are doing not right in this loosing periods and start making decisions that will crush there edge, what makes them loose more and more. At this time even more emotions comes in, what makes them for example mess with there MM and try to win there money back with putting more at risk, what eventually blow al of it.

In the beginning of this journey the most important thing is to learn how the markets behave. You have to learn to recognise patterns, and learn how to deal with them. This can be done best on demo accounts, because you are still learning.
Then you need a set of rules that makes you sure that you will keep acting according the things you have learned. You can call it a strategy. This is really important because the only way to keep your emotions out and keeps you believe your doing right even in loosing periods, is knowing exactly what your doing time after time.
Than you have to become a master of the process, keep doing it over and over again and evaluate the situation again and again. With the time you will become better and will be able to see what situations within your strategy (set of rules), will be valide and wich are fals. This will makes your edge even bigger.
Stuck with what your doing and become a real master in it, this is not possible when your switching your rules or strategy every couple of months.

Set-up a solid money management plan that keeps you in the game and is solid enough for you to not let your emotions takes control in whatever situation.

There was also a reaction about taking your position out when you see you are loosing. It make sense but is also really dangerous i think. When do you know you are right or wrong? What makes you pull the trigger to get your position out?? Mostly this is based on moving data, and see that it looks like your loosing money at the moment.. This is something you can do, but only if you are really know what your doing. But?? is that not the main reason of the stop-loss?? set a price lvl what proves that you are wrong?

The whole point is, stuck with a predefined plan what cover's al the decisions you have to make, also the decisions that you have to make when your trade is open. Every situation that can play out (also while your trade is open) should be covered before you open the trade. And act to al these rules without hesitating, and never change the plan while after you made it.

Getting an edge of the markets is the simple part, stuck with it is the hard part ;)

In my opinion, the difference between a solid trader and a gambler is someone who can make over taught decisions based on a predefined plan what they know is working, and someone who makes there decisions based on how they feel.


Don't understand my wrong, this is only my look to it, and i'm also struggling with it. It will be a lifetime journey to walk the stairs step by step. But i notice that the more honest you can be to yourself and the more you be able not to blame anything for certain outcomes, the better results you will get.

(i'm sorry for this much to long text haha, i can keep typing about this subject for ever =p)
(and sorry if the english is not perfect, working on it ;)

Apipfx posted:
You're a trader when you analyse before put an order in your trading, because a gambler can't do so and they're just only depending on their luck. You're a trader when you're not hesitate yourself while trading.

We need some luck too plus what you said above.
Right place at the right time.


Be lucky.

CrazyTrader posted:
The funny thing is everybody wanna be a trader... and so they try to stick professional rules thinking it is the only way to be successfull in trading.
You are a trader when you work in an hedge fund and manage Millions of dollars... else you are nothing.... just a 'wannabe trader' including myself.

It's not because i don't give a f... to the MM that we are been taught that I'm more a gambler than anyone else.

Refer to the last bet taken on EurUsd chart... A good gambler makes more pips than a consistent wannabe trader.

Refering to the all questions you mentionned... you do not talk about a gambler... You talk about addicted person that needs to me in a trade all time thinking if he is not, then he misses opportunities.

There's no such thing as a good Gambler.

mennopet posted:
Trading is always a form of gambling i think, thats not a negative thing.

When you are gambling in a casino, you walk in with $100 and decide to put 10 times $10 on red, you know before you start that you have more change of loosing that winning. In this particular game, the casino has always an edge over you. They created a system for that game that makes you loose over the long run. You can still win over 10 bets, you can even win over 1000 bets when you have some luck on your side. So in this case, even the casino is gambling. There power is that if they keep playing for long enough against enough bets from enough people, there outcome will become positive sooner or later.

When you take other games, like poker or blackjack (at the time card counting was still possible), there is no predefined edge for anyone. The outcome will be determined by the players and how they decide how and when they bet. That means that when you be able to have a clear look of the current game and the current players, and you are able to make decisions based on that situation that give you an edge over the decisions of your opponents, and you keep playing for long enough, at some point your results will be positive. Even in this situation you are still gambling because you can loose and loose, and you never know when you will become positive. You only created a game with the luck on your side.


This is stil the same with trading the forex markets these days.
This market is Break even, what means that where someone wins money, someone else have to loose that amount. Keep that in mind.
The benefits of this market is that it moves in clear patterns, actually the same patterns as it did for a long time. This makes it possible to have an idea how your opponents work, how they make decisions. Where they most likely go in and out. Whit this noledge you can create a system that takes advantage over them what gives you an edge over your opponents.

keep in mind that this will be most likely a relative small edge. Because of this even if you are a winning player, it will be a messy road to succes with a lot of losses on the road.
I think this is the main reason why so many people are still loosing in the long run.
Because of this small edge, you have to deal with periods that the markets keep going against you, again and again, while your still have an edge, and still doing well.
This pumps in so much emotion that people doing to doubt them self. They are likely going to think that they are doing not right in this loosing periods and start making decisions that will crush there edge, what makes them loose more and more. At this time even more emotions comes in, what makes them for example mess with there MM and try to win there money back with putting more at risk, what eventually blow al of it.

In the beginning of this journey the most important thing is to learn how the markets behave. You have to learn to recognise patterns, and learn how to deal with them. This can be done best on demo accounts, because you are still learning.
Then you need a set of rules that makes you sure that you will keep acting according the things you have learned. You can call it a strategy. This is really important because the only way to keep your emotions out and keeps you believe your doing right even in loosing periods, is knowing exactly what your doing time after time.
Than you have to become a master of the process, keep doing it over and over again and evaluate the situation again and again. With the time you will become better and will be able to see what situations within your strategy (set of rules), will be valide and wich are fals. This will makes your edge even bigger.
Stuck with what your doing and become a real master in it, this is not possible when your switching your rules or strategy every couple of months.

Set-up a solid money management plan that keeps you in the game and is solid enough for you to not let your emotions takes control in whatever situation.

There was also a reaction about taking your position out when you see you are loosing. It make sense but is also really dangerous i think. When do you know you are right or wrong? What makes you pull the trigger to get your position out?? Mostly this is based on moving data, and see that it looks like your loosing money at the moment.. This is something you can do, but only if you are really know what your doing. But?? is that not the main reason of the stop-loss?? set a price lvl what proves that you are wrong?

The whole point is, stuck with a predefined plan what cover's al the decisions you have to make, also the decisions that you have to make when your trade is open. Every situation that can play out (also while your trade is open) should be covered before you open the trade. And act to al these rules without hesitating, and never change the plan while after you made it.

Getting an edge of the markets is the simple part, stuck with it is the hard part ;)

In my opinion, the difference between a solid trader and a gambler is someone who can make over taught decisions based on a predefined plan what they know is working, and someone who makes there decisions based on how they feel.


Don't understand my wrong, this is only my look to it, and i'm also struggling with it. It will be a lifetime journey to walk the stairs step by step. But i notice that the more honest you can be to yourself and the more you be able not to blame anything for certain outcomes, the better results you will get.

(i'm sorry for this much to long text haha, i can keep typing about this subject for ever =p)
(and sorry if the english is not perfect, working on it ;)

Not bad,Professional Traders do keep repeating the same process over and over on the same product day in day out,you have to ask yourself who are you getting an edge over,other Retail Traders or Professional Traders?what is my edge?
Another thing is can we say in one sentence what we are?If I meet you down the pub and ask you what you do,can you answer me ,im a scalper,a trend trader,gap player,etc..you can always get a good education and save yourself lots of time and money.


Be lucky.

snapdragon1970 posted:

michaelbai posted:
some gamblers also count cards to improve their chances or winning, so its not fair to say someone who analyzes before trading. They key is EDUCATED and VARIED analysis. The market is constantly changing, so why is it possible you can use the same singular method for analysis day in and day out?

You have to have some kind of method otherwise how are you going to know what works and what doesn't ,educated yes but the same analysis day in day out,ask any city trader,they stick with one method that works over a long period,tried and tested,yes the market is constantly changing,they sit and wait for the time their method works.

I agree, and as you pointed out, they wait to time their method for execution, the implication is it doesnt work all the time, but when the timing is right to utilize that 'tool' and a timing a trader will utilize a different 'tool' otherwise loose out on potential gains because of the lack of a tool, which is an underlying theme for why EAs work and/or don't work and a reason the less experienced/educated traders tend to experience loss more than win as they haven't developed their tools and the proper timing of these tools, but as anyone can point out, there is also a luck factor. But i gues this is the point the OP　was trying to make in understanding if he/she is a trader or a gambler. I　was just trying to make a distinction between those who are purely gambling ie randomly making clicks becuase they 'feel' a win is comming versus those who are using their own algorithms (even if they are not set 100% clearly that a maching could copy) who are taking into account the constantly changing markets, political environments, etc to make educated...investments. at the heart, we could say they are the same, as you said there is no such thing as a good gambler

Does the following theory makes sens to you.

A pure gambler must have more chance to be successfull at trading rather than a wannabe trader!?.... why?

A wannabe trader lose 90% sure!... while the the odd is 50%

takes 100 people trading randomly market... 50% chance that 50% of them are successfull. while 100 randoms traders, we got 90% of loosers!

Hummm how come?

CrazyTrader posted:
Does the following theory makes sens to you.

A pure gambler must have more chance to be successfull at trading rather than a wannabe trader!?.... why?

A wannabe trader lose 90% sure!... while the the odd is 50%

takes 100 people trading randomly market... 50% chance that 50% of them are successfull. while 100 randoms traders, we got 90% of loosers!

Hummm how come?

@CrazyTrader
You do not understand stats.
90% of retail traders fail.
It does not mean such trader lose 90% of their trades.
He can lose just 10% and has wrong trade size for example.

So you got my point:
A chilly gambler are more chance to be successfull by gambling same bet each time.

CrazyTrader posted:
So you got my point:
A chilly gambler are more chance to be successfull by gambling same bet each time.

No

oh for sure the system equals out. i dont argue with you about this at all. this is the fundamental of how the markets operate. somebody must loose for others to win.

its not that 50% of the traders are successfull because the market provides a 50/50 change of success.

This only means that you have 50% of succes at a single 1 to 1 trade, if you plan to let it run until you loose or win.

But the problem is that you can decrease your own probability even more that you can increase it.

Let me explain it with a casino example =p

When you gonna play roulette, and you gonna put your money on black or red, that you have nearly a 50/50 change of success on a single bet. Let's say you walk in with $10 and decide to put that on red, and if you win you walk out of the casino with $20, then you have a chance of almost 50% walking out the casino dubbelde your money!..

But in reallity, most people just walking into a casino and keep playing until they blow al the money they took, including the profits they made before....
This decrease the probability of succes..

This is the same in the forex market.. When you can't hold on to a solid money management plan, you will blown out of the game before you know your in there.. And there your 50% change of winning go's...

Even if you are capable of holding on to good MM, but you are to emotional to hold on to the market rules like you planned it, and you have a negative long term outcome because of that, you will die slowly and there your changes go

keep in mind that the market have massive potential, but is at the same time one of the most dangerous things you can be in.

Therefor its really really important to know and plan what you do before you go in. Not only the entry of a trade, but also the way you want to manage your money on al fronts. How much you gonna risk, when your gonna take profit, calculate every thing you do and set goals when you gonna take profits out of your account.

michaelbai posted:

snapdragon1970 posted:

michaelbai posted:
some gamblers also count cards to improve their chances or winning, so its not fair to say someone who analyzes before trading. They key is EDUCATED and VARIED analysis. The market is constantly changing, so why is it possible you can use the same singular method for analysis day in and day out?

You have to have some kind of method otherwise how are you going to know what works and what doesn't ,educated yes but the same analysis day in day out,ask any city trader,they stick with one method that works over a long period,tried and tested,yes the market is constantly changing,they sit and wait for the time their method works.

I agree, and as you pointed out, they wait to time their method for execution, the implication is it doesnt work all the time, but when the timing is right to utilize that 'tool' and a timing a trader will utilize a different 'tool' otherwise loose out on potential gains because of the lack of a tool, which is an underlying theme for why EAs work and/or don't work and a reason the less experienced/educated traders tend to experience loss more than win as they haven't developed their tools and the proper timing of these tools, but as anyone can point out, there is also a luck factor. But i gues this is the point the OP　was trying to make in understanding if he/she is a trader or a gambler. I　was just trying to make a distinction between those who are purely gambling ie randomly making clicks becuase they 'feel' a win is comming versus those who are using their own algorithms (even if they are not set 100% clearly that a maching could copy) who are taking into account the constantly changing markets, political environments, etc to make educated...investments. at the heart, we could say they are the same, as you said there is no such thing as a good gambler

When you start in any professional trading firm,you are told this is the product you are going to trade,nothing else,you will trade this your entire career,you know this product inside out,when it's cheap to buy ,when its good to sell,never mind looking at any chart,if you want to trade something else ,go find a job somewhere else.The trader has to act like that EA only better.

Thanks for your comment.