20-40% performance fee (with high watermark) for Forex traders
Ahli sejak Oct 01, 2009
242 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 11:55
(disunting Sep 04, 2011 at 11:55)
Everyone is free to keep their opinion. I am focusing on making my NAV curve smoothly going up.
😄
😄
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Ahli sejak Jan 14, 2010
2299 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 11:59
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.
CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:04
CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)
but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.
when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.
with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.
but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.
have nice week end.
walker.
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:08
Chikot posted:
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
thank you
I can code a EA in 10 min with 10 code lines 2000 pip stop ALGO is not important and it will make great money on any pair UNTIL IT WILL BLOW.
regards
Ahli sejak Jan 14, 2010
2299 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:11
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.
walker36 posted:
CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)
but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.
when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.
with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.
but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.
have nice week end.
walker.
Ahli sejak Jan 14, 2010
2299 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:14
Steve, I do not have to calculate to know this in advance 😉
I would just say that were he trading OPM funds form some company, the company has risk management department and he would not been allowed to go into this kind of DD.
I would just say that were he trading OPM funds form some company, the company has risk management department and he would not been allowed to go into this kind of DD.
walker36 posted:
Chikot posted:
Cuong, there is intellect and there is wisdom.
This guy's curve and Sharpe ratio will look great until he blows one day and he will if he continues to trade this way.CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, we know where the money grow the fastest.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
thank you
I can code a EA in 10 min with 10 code lines 2000 pip stop ALGO is not important and it will make great money on any pair UNTIL IT WILL BLOW.
regards
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:15
Chikot posted:
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.walker36 posted:
CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)
but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.
when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.
with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.
but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.
have nice week end.
walker.
I AM NOT TALKING PERSONALLY. I DO NOT KNOW HIM. AND I DO NOT MAKE COMMENT IF I DO NOT KNOW.
I am talking in general.
regards
Ahli sejak Oct 01, 2009
242 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:15
(disunting Sep 04, 2011 at 12:16)
To Steve Walker,
That is why not anyone can make money.
I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.
😄
That is why not anyone can make money.
I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.
😄
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Ahli sejak Jan 14, 2010
2299 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:25
Steve, I simply know Cuong so I let you know. But otherwise you are corre4ct. i am trying to get my account trading privileges and record verified and there was on myfxbookj site tat MT4 results can be easily manipulated. Have no idea why they make such platforms where someone can manipulate results.
walker36 posted:
Chikot posted:
Cuong is actually a honest guy. I have known him since Oanda for few years. I do not think he would fake results.walker36 posted:
CuongVC posted:
We all care about making money grow. The parameter to measure that is how many percentage per month or per year. That is why we have interest. Interest is how many percentage per year we have to pay the bank when we borrow money from them. With this, they don't really care how big the account is.
Pips has some meaning but we can not just look at pips and say this system is better than that system,... We need to look at NAV curve, DD%, sharpe ratio.
Have a good strategy.
when you deal with bank you have no DD. you have fix % interest and you will see it in your account at the end of option if your bank is not Lehmanbrothers :)
but on trading you have risk/reward ratio and DD.
in this thread most of the systems are built up from many systems. so when you are talking about a trader system basicly you are talking about a bunch of systems at the same time.
when discussing that kind of combined system with low level detailed information PIP s is more important then DD%.
when you go details for a named system you are wright.
with 1000 usd equity
if you trade 0.1 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
if you trade 1.0 lot and price goes against you DD% wil be different
so I can easily fake about the information I publish here while trade lots are not well known. but PIP s never fails.
but this is not my thread and ı am not the one who is goıng to make comments.
have nice week end.
walker.
I AM NOT TALKING PERSONALLY. I DO NOT KNOW HIM. AND I DO NOT MAKE COMMENT IF I DO NOT KNOW.
I am talking in general.
regards
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:29
CuongVC posted:
To Steve Walker,
That is why not anyone can make money.
I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.
😄
Now I know him and I can make comment!
you have totally missunderstand what I am saying or you do NOT want to understand.
with 2000 pip DD anybody can code. even my grandmamy can trade.
UNTIL ACCOUNT BLOW.
I am out of this thread.
have a nice weekend.
walker
Ahli sejak Oct 01, 2009
242 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:33
(disunting Sep 04, 2011 at 12:37)
Everyone can keep his/her opinion. I am trying to make my NAV curve smoothly going up.
I know by doing that money will find me. Actually many people have contacted me requesting me to trade for them.
If you can proof that you can make money grow, tons of money will flow to you.
Have a good strategy and stay cool.
CuongVC
I know by doing that money will find me. Actually many people have contacted me requesting me to trade for them.
If you can proof that you can make money grow, tons of money will flow to you.
Have a good strategy and stay cool.
CuongVC
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Ahli sejak Jan 14, 2010
2299 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 12:34
Steve, I AGREE WITH YOU!
This is what I actually meant.
Please read my above comments where I stated the same that this guy's account will show excellent curve and Sharpe ratio until he BLOWS.
I simply stated that regarding Cuong, not that another guy, I personally think that cuong is not a kind of person that is likely to fake his trading results.
Please do not be so hot headed. i like you too 😉
This is what I actually meant.
Please read my above comments where I stated the same that this guy's account will show excellent curve and Sharpe ratio until he BLOWS.
I simply stated that regarding Cuong, not that another guy, I personally think that cuong is not a kind of person that is likely to fake his trading results.
Please do not be so hot headed. i like you too 😉
walker36 posted:
CuongVC posted:
To Steve Walker,
That is why not anyone can make money.
I can do the same very fast. Only a well thought ALGO will make money grows longterm, and that take much more than 10 min to do.
😄
Now I know him and I can make comment!
you have totally missunderstand what I am saying or you do NOT want to understand.
with 2000 pip DD anybody can code. even my grandmamy can trade.
UNTIL ACCOUNT BLOW.
I am out of this thread.
have a nice weekend.
walker
Ahli sejak Oct 01, 2009
242 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 14:24
I think if we have fix trade size per trade and only have one trade at a time, pip is important. In my case, I can have multiple trades open at any point in time. Some times I close every trades, some trades with a loss and some trades with a gain but overall that action bring Balance up. I consider that is a good action even the 'total pip' can be a negative number. I care about bring the Balance up when close all, not about pip.
I have seen severall people do this and I think it is a good approach if we don't overtrade. We have to carefully watch the margin used.
Have a good strategy to all.
CuongVC
I have seen severall people do this and I think it is a good approach if we don't overtrade. We have to carefully watch the margin used.
Have a good strategy to all.
CuongVC
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Ahli sejak Oct 01, 2009
242 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 14:37
(disunting Sep 04, 2011 at 14:43)
For example (assuming 0.1 lot equal to 1 USD per pip):
Trade1: 0.1 lot x (-100 pip) = -100 USD (loss 100USD)
Trade 2: 0.1 lot x (-20 pip) = -20 USD (loss 20USD)
Trade 3: 0.5 lot x (10 pip) = + 50 USD (gain 50USD)
Trade 4: 0.5 lot x (30 pip) = + 100 USD (gain 100USD)
Total we gain 30USD even total pip = -100 -20+10+30 = -90 pips. The way myfxbook.com calculate total pips is just a sum of all pip gain or lose of all trades regarless of their lot size. If we only base on that number to say a strategy is bad or good, we may not right, IMO.
Regards,
CuongVC
Trade1: 0.1 lot x (-100 pip) = -100 USD (loss 100USD)
Trade 2: 0.1 lot x (-20 pip) = -20 USD (loss 20USD)
Trade 3: 0.5 lot x (10 pip) = + 50 USD (gain 50USD)
Trade 4: 0.5 lot x (30 pip) = + 100 USD (gain 100USD)
Total we gain 30USD even total pip = -100 -20+10+30 = -90 pips. The way myfxbook.com calculate total pips is just a sum of all pip gain or lose of all trades regarless of their lot size. If we only base on that number to say a strategy is bad or good, we may not right, IMO.
Regards,
CuongVC
If you can prove that you can make money grows, tons of money will flow to you.
Ahli sejak Apr 25, 2011
262 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 16:35
Wow, lots of comments since I went to bed last night! 😎
And since I see so many opposing opinions, I'll do the following: rather than address each particular topic, and post my take on it, I'll give more details about what I'm looking for. I think most of you are correct from a certain point of view, and now I'll give my point of view, since that's what I'm using to judge whether is a system is a match or not.
First of all, the 2 metrics I talked about the most (Pips Expectancy and Expectancy Ratio) are not the only things I'm looking for. I hope that was obvious, but just to make sure: I'm not simply sort the systems by one or both of those metrics, and pick the ones with the highest values.
The true measure of a system's success, when talking about its place in my portfolio, is the answer to this question:
<b>Given the ability to trade up to 1 minilot (i.e. open positions are limited to that), in 1 microlot increments, how quickly can you make $100 without going into a drawdown deeper than $100?</b>.
It's up to you if you have just one trade open at a time, and use the maximum allowed size for that (1 minilot), or if you use a system that sometimes needs additional positions, in which case you limit your trades to 0.04 lots, let's say. You can even do a Martingale like this: 0.01, 0.02, 0.03 and 0.04. The final goal is to produce $100 of profit. If you can achieve that in 1 month, great! If you can do it in 2 weeks, even better! However, if it takes you 3+ months to do it, we'll probably talk about ways to reduce the time-to-target.
There are also a couple of conditions you need to be aware of, and I'll list them below:
1) hedging is permitted, FIFO is ignored
2) only Forex trading is currently allowed
3) floating DD is also subject to $100 limit
4) account must be flat over the weekend
#1 is not a restriction, but quite the opposite, and I wanted to tell you about that, since for some systems it matters
#2 will filter out some systems, some quite good, which is unfortunate, but that's what the situation is at the moment
#3 will eliminate all the systems that either use to much leverage, or let the positions build up against them; this condition and further research on my side is what triggered me to ask traders to calculate those 2 metrics; like I said, they are not the ultimate filter, they just allow me to get a good initial feeling about how well a strategy would fit my needs
#4 will further eliminate a bunch of systems, some again being quite profitable; but that condition is part of the strict risk management criteria I'm following right now, so it must be respected; systems that hold on to positions for weeks, hoping for a reversal, will be the first to suffer from this restriction. If your system is really good, I might consider it for an alternate portfolio in the future
There are many more details to be discussed, but I'll end this post now, since it is already loaded with information.
By the way, the actual lot size that you'll be allowed to trade can be much higher than in the example above, but I really want to use the 1 minilot / $100 example since it focuses on profitability, and not on the huge dollar gains. I can assure you there is great dollar gain potential in what I'm offering, but for everyone reading this thread, and for me as well, I want to first discover matching systems and only afterwards dream about how many dollars will flow into our accounts each month.
Happy trading,
Remus
And since I see so many opposing opinions, I'll do the following: rather than address each particular topic, and post my take on it, I'll give more details about what I'm looking for. I think most of you are correct from a certain point of view, and now I'll give my point of view, since that's what I'm using to judge whether is a system is a match or not.
First of all, the 2 metrics I talked about the most (Pips Expectancy and Expectancy Ratio) are not the only things I'm looking for. I hope that was obvious, but just to make sure: I'm not simply sort the systems by one or both of those metrics, and pick the ones with the highest values.
The true measure of a system's success, when talking about its place in my portfolio, is the answer to this question:
<b>Given the ability to trade up to 1 minilot (i.e. open positions are limited to that), in 1 microlot increments, how quickly can you make $100 without going into a drawdown deeper than $100?</b>.
It's up to you if you have just one trade open at a time, and use the maximum allowed size for that (1 minilot), or if you use a system that sometimes needs additional positions, in which case you limit your trades to 0.04 lots, let's say. You can even do a Martingale like this: 0.01, 0.02, 0.03 and 0.04. The final goal is to produce $100 of profit. If you can achieve that in 1 month, great! If you can do it in 2 weeks, even better! However, if it takes you 3+ months to do it, we'll probably talk about ways to reduce the time-to-target.
There are also a couple of conditions you need to be aware of, and I'll list them below:
1) hedging is permitted, FIFO is ignored
2) only Forex trading is currently allowed
3) floating DD is also subject to $100 limit
4) account must be flat over the weekend
#1 is not a restriction, but quite the opposite, and I wanted to tell you about that, since for some systems it matters
#2 will filter out some systems, some quite good, which is unfortunate, but that's what the situation is at the moment
#3 will eliminate all the systems that either use to much leverage, or let the positions build up against them; this condition and further research on my side is what triggered me to ask traders to calculate those 2 metrics; like I said, they are not the ultimate filter, they just allow me to get a good initial feeling about how well a strategy would fit my needs
#4 will further eliminate a bunch of systems, some again being quite profitable; but that condition is part of the strict risk management criteria I'm following right now, so it must be respected; systems that hold on to positions for weeks, hoping for a reversal, will be the first to suffer from this restriction. If your system is really good, I might consider it for an alternate portfolio in the future
There are many more details to be discussed, but I'll end this post now, since it is already loaded with information.
By the way, the actual lot size that you'll be allowed to trade can be much higher than in the example above, but I really want to use the 1 minilot / $100 example since it focuses on profitability, and not on the huge dollar gains. I can assure you there is great dollar gain potential in what I'm offering, but for everyone reading this thread, and for me as well, I want to first discover matching systems and only afterwards dream about how many dollars will flow into our accounts each month.
Happy trading,
Remus
He who thinks he can, and he who thinks he cannot, are both right. ~ Henry Ford
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 19:06
SaltyWaters posted:
Did I just see Greasy Monkey and Demo Boy trashing Money Maker :) LOL
can you PLEASE use nick names!!
so we all understand WHO IS 'Greasy Monkey' AND 'Demo Boy' AND trashing 'Money Maker'
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 19:13
SaltyWaters posted:
That's even funnier! LOL :)
IF YOU JOIN ME I WILL MAKE LOL SLATYUNDERWATER
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 19:15
YOU ARE KIND OF A PERSON WHO POST AFTER PEOPLE. NOT TO THEIR FACE!!
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 19:17
Remus I wish you a luck with that kınd of people who call themselves as a TRADER.
you really have a hard job.
regards
walker
you really have a hard job.
regards
walker
forex_trader_36599
Ahli sejak May 13, 2011
1341 hantaran
Sep 04, 2011 at 19:24
our discussion here was about DD% and PIP.
at the end thread creator has come to the poınt of making forward tests with a certian amount of Lots which can DD% be calculated for all traders with the same %.
and this is what ı was trying to say.
if people like to call other with stupid names they can first look at the mirror.
Remus this is my last post here. I would like make some positive input here but it is not possible with that great TRADERS here.
regards
walker
at the end thread creator has come to the poınt of making forward tests with a certian amount of Lots which can DD% be calculated for all traders with the same %.
and this is what ı was trying to say.
if people like to call other with stupid names they can first look at the mirror.
Remus this is my last post here. I would like make some positive input here but it is not possible with that great TRADERS here.
regards
walker
